Comments on: SimChurch – Being the Church in a Virtual World http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/2009/10/22/simchurch-being-the-church-in-a-virtual-world/ Church technology news. Tue, 22 Nov 2011 18:17:31 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: James http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/2009/10/22/simchurch-being-the-church-in-a-virtual-world/#comment-41878 James Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:32:39 +0000 http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/?p=4356#comment-41878 Douglas, Dan, etc. - Firstly: I'm not specifically for or against "online church or community"... I am however concerned that in debating the matter and as such being forced to take a "stand" for one's respective points of view, we are in fact being lured into a position where the "best answer" is actually alluding us. Let me explain: The fact of the matter is that there are many opportunities being opened up by the internet and related technologies - this is true/a fact. So we should explore and seek to understand and leverage the possibilities as they unfold online. BUT (had to be one...) perhaps we should be careful not to make more of it than it should be in our attempt to explore, use, and justify the capabilities. (I see this in my work every day - I'm an IT consultant and one of the biggest challenges is to ensure that organizations retain the appropriate perspective - technology is an enabler, it supports the business goals and processes - it is never useful in and of itself - technocrats, "technology lovers" think otherwise, but eventually have to agree that technology is not ultimately useful without it being used in support of a greater human endeavor...) - "Church" in the "brick and mortar" paradigm has the same problem: the enabler (a venue to meet and share) has become the purpose for many individuals and even whole congregations. Jesus' "church" as a "body" of believers who share life with each other and seek to find more "lost sheep" in response to the great commission should never have become "constrained" to a DAY and a PLACE! I believe that we should not be thinking "how do we get the marginalized and unbelieving into a brick church or online church?" - We should be encouraging each other as believers to seek and find those people "where they are"... St. Francis of Assisi said "Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words." - Christian living should always, first and foremost, be about LIVING a life to His glory, which will support, affirm and encourage other believers and be a witness to non-believers in such a way that they eventually want to meet their Saviour the same way we did! Brick and mortar Churches was/is NOT the best place to do this and I believe we shouldn't be thinking that the online world would be any better at it... "WE are the temple of the Holy Spirit!" WE should be getting out there to reach the lost and hungry, the sick and poor, fellow believers, and when useful in support of that LIFE, we could possibly make use of a church building or online meeting place...as a "resource" ... anyway - that's my opinion... Douglas, Dan, etc. – Firstly: I’m not specifically for or against “online church or community”… I am however concerned that in debating the matter and as such being forced to take a “stand” for one’s respective points of view, we are in fact being lured into a position where the “best answer” is actually alluding us. Let me explain: The fact of the matter is that there are many opportunities being opened up by the internet and related technologies – this is true/a fact. So we should explore and seek to understand and leverage the possibilities as they unfold online. BUT (had to be one…) perhaps we should be careful not to make more of it than it should be in our attempt to explore, use, and justify the capabilities. (I see this in my work every day – I’m an IT consultant and one of the biggest challenges is to ensure that organizations retain the appropriate perspective – technology is an enabler, it supports the business goals and processes – it is never useful in and of itself – technocrats, “technology lovers” think otherwise, but eventually have to agree that technology is not ultimately useful without it being used in support of a greater human endeavor…) – “Church” in the “brick and mortar” paradigm has the same problem: the enabler (a venue to meet and share) has become the purpose for many individuals and even whole congregations. Jesus’ “church” as a “body” of believers who share life with each other and seek to find more “lost sheep” in response to the great commission should never have become “constrained” to a DAY and a PLACE! I believe that we should not be thinking “how do we get the marginalized and unbelieving into a brick church or online church?” – We should be encouraging each other as believers to seek and find those people “where they are”… St. Francis of Assisi said “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.” – Christian living should always, first and foremost, be about LIVING a life to His glory, which will support, affirm and encourage other believers and be a witness to non-believers in such a way that they eventually want to meet their Saviour the same way we did! Brick and mortar Churches was/is NOT the best place to do this and I believe we shouldn’t be thinking that the online world would be any better at it… “WE are the temple of the Holy Spirit!” WE should be getting out there to reach the lost and hungry, the sick and poor, fellow believers, and when useful in support of that LIFE, we could possibly make use of a church building or online meeting place…as a “resource” … anyway – that’s my opinion…

]]> By: Show and Tell for the Week of 10/18/09 | thejakers http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/2009/10/22/simchurch-being-the-church-in-a-virtual-world/#comment-41872 Show and Tell for the Week of 10/18/09 | thejakers Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:10:49 +0000 http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/?p=4356#comment-41872 [...] post at TheDigitalsactuary.com on SimChurch and Internet churches. There is a longer more lively post [...] [...] post at TheDigitalsactuary.com on SimChurch and Internet churches. There is a longer more lively post [...]

]]> By: Douglas Estes http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/2009/10/22/simchurch-being-the-church-in-a-virtual-world/#comment-41698 Douglas Estes Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:23:14 +0000 http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/?p=4356#comment-41698 John - Thank you! (And not just about the book thing)! Here's the problem with this discussion: the issue of online church is probably one of the most difficult discussions the church has faced in a long time, and one cannot summarize all thoughts on it in a blog post. So, please, send me your thoughts if you get a chance to read it. Blessings to you. John – Thank you! (And not just about the book thing)! Here’s the problem with this discussion: the issue of online church is probably one of the most difficult discussions the church has faced in a long time, and one cannot summarize all thoughts on it in a blog post. So, please, send me your thoughts if you get a chance to read it. Blessings to you.

]]> By: John Dyer http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/2009/10/22/simchurch-being-the-church-in-a-virtual-world/#comment-41681 John Dyer Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:23:17 +0000 http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/?p=4356#comment-41681 After reading this post and Doug's Out of Ur post, I really feel like I need to read the book to get the full argument before commenting. I'd hate to respond to a few relatively short blog posts (which by their nature can be easily dismissed) and miss fully understanding this significant movement in the church. After reading this post and Doug’s Out of Ur post, I really feel like I need to read the book to get the full argument before commenting. I’d hate to respond to a few relatively short blog posts (which by their nature can be easily dismissed) and miss fully understanding this significant movement in the church.

]]> By: Chris http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/2009/10/22/simchurch-being-the-church-in-a-virtual-world/#comment-41640 Chris Fri, 23 Oct 2009 01:10:27 +0000 http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/?p=4356#comment-41640 Chris - May I pick apart something you said (in love)? You mentioned that there is a regular church right down the road. Alot of folks, especially in the U.S., make this assumption … but it is not true in a lot of the rest of the world. In fact, it’s not even true in the US … there has been at least 1 town I visited in the US where there was no viable church for me had I lived there. I’m sure there are even more towns than that just in the US. As much of the world moves away from Christianity, the virtual will fill a role as one viable format for healthy biblical community. _______________ Thanks Douglas. This is exactly my point was. That the Online church can be a viable and useful form of community for those who do not have access to/freedom for church. Chris – May I pick apart something you said (in love)? You mentioned that there is a regular church right down the road. Alot of folks, especially in the U.S., make this assumption … but it is not true in a lot of the rest of the world. In fact, it’s not even true in the US … there has been at least 1 town I visited in the US where there was no viable church for me had I lived there. I’m sure there are even more towns than that just in the US. As much of the world moves away from Christianity, the virtual will fill a role as one viable format for healthy biblical community.
_______________
Thanks Douglas. This is exactly my point was. That the Online church can be a viable and useful form of community for those who do not have access to/freedom for church.

]]> By: Chris http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/2009/10/22/simchurch-being-the-church-in-a-virtual-world/#comment-41639 Chris Fri, 23 Oct 2009 00:56:39 +0000 http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/?p=4356#comment-41639 Cynthia, I would agree, that there are those who would not attend "physical" church, for whatever experiences they may have with it in the past. And online church can be an alternative for them to be a part of it. Cynthia,

I would agree, that there are those who would not attend “physical” church, for whatever experiences they may have with it in the past. And online church can be an alternative for them to be a part of it.

]]> By: Dan Perkins http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/2009/10/22/simchurch-being-the-church-in-a-virtual-world/#comment-41637 Dan Perkins Fri, 23 Oct 2009 00:34:46 +0000 http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/?p=4356#comment-41637 ... coming to church, going to church, having a church, planting a church, all assumes location. Yet the concept of church, as such, is rarely stated in scripture. The building of church is referenced in conjunction with gifts to equip God's people to do His work. Interesting the context for this in Eph.4 is to build up the "body" until it is unified showing full maturation to the standard of Christ. If Christ's prayer was for the church to be one as he and the Father are one, an argument can be made that locations actually hinder this while online communities make it possible. Unlike the first century church, this debate and the premise of Doug's book is only possible because of the technology which exists today. Gutenberg's press, considered by many, the means by which the reformation spread so quickly and effectively was undoubtedly criticized in his day, by those assuming such a devise would cheapen the Holy Scriptures because some monk wasn't painstakingly writing each letter by hand! I think we all agree in the potential online communities and social networks can have in reaching those who would not darken the door of a brick and mortar church so, to question the honesty and understanding about the reception of truth, in such a world, is not harmful but rather necessary... Let the debate continue! … coming to church, going to church, having a church, planting a church, all assumes location. Yet the concept of church, as such, is rarely stated in scripture. The building of church is referenced in conjunction with gifts to equip God’s people to do His work. Interesting the context for this in Eph.4 is to build up the “body” until it is unified showing full maturation to the standard of Christ. If Christ’s prayer was for the church to be one as he and the Father are one, an argument can be made that locations actually hinder this while online communities make it possible. Unlike the first century church, this debate and the premise of Doug’s book is only possible because of the technology which exists today. Gutenberg’s press, considered by many, the means by which the reformation spread so quickly and effectively was undoubtedly criticized in his day, by those assuming such a devise would cheapen the Holy Scriptures because some monk wasn’t painstakingly writing each letter by hand!

I think we all agree in the potential online communities and social networks can have in reaching those who would not darken the door of a brick and mortar church so, to question the honesty and understanding about the reception of truth, in such a world, is not harmful but rather necessary… Let the debate continue!

]]> By: Brian Vasil http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/2009/10/22/simchurch-being-the-church-in-a-virtual-world/#comment-41635 Brian Vasil Fri, 23 Oct 2009 00:03:29 +0000 http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/?p=4356#comment-41635 Hi Cynthia, Great discussion about Internet Campuses and Doug's new book! I feel so blessed to be called to help reach those searching for God online... I'm looking forward to seeing what God does through this. Blessings! Hi Cynthia,
Great discussion about Internet Campuses and Doug’s new book! I feel so blessed to be called to help reach those searching for God online… I’m looking forward to seeing what God does through this.

Blessings!

]]> By: Douglas Estes http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/2009/10/22/simchurch-being-the-church-in-a-virtual-world/#comment-41619 Douglas Estes Thu, 22 Oct 2009 22:16:25 +0000 http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/?p=4356#comment-41619 Jesse, Thanks. I would definitely agree with you that if one of the reasons for doing online church was to avoid certain aspects of church and biblical community, that that would be a problem and not be a good thing. As far as reasons why, there are several. They all relate to a) meeting people where they are at and b) realizing that our world contains many marginalized folks who would need the intimacy -- yes, you heard me right -- that can come with some forms of the virtual church. One obvious example is most of the world (unlike the US) where the prevalence of churches is low. Another obvious example is people with debilitating diseases who can't or won't go out in a public setting. I have noticed a lot of testimonies from people like that. What troubles me the most about this discussion has been the folks who are willing to write off these marginalized folks by say, 'they just need to come to my brick and mortar church.' If you read all the blog posts about this issue, I find this sentiment implicit in much of the negative reaction. More than doing anything to reach people, I feel that we should establish biblical community wherever possible to make even the least of these be able to take part. We need to lower the threshold of getting into church, not raise it. Thanks for your good comment - and may God bless you today! Jesse,

Thanks. I would definitely agree with you that if one of the reasons for doing online church was to avoid certain aspects of church and biblical community, that that would be a problem and not be a good thing.

As far as reasons why, there are several. They all relate to a) meeting people where they are at and b) realizing that our world contains many marginalized folks who would need the intimacy — yes, you heard me right — that can come with some forms of the virtual church. One obvious example is most of the world (unlike the US) where the prevalence of churches is low. Another obvious example is people with debilitating diseases who can’t or won’t go out in a public setting. I have noticed a lot of testimonies from people like that.

What troubles me the most about this discussion has been the folks who are willing to write off these marginalized folks by say, ‘they just need to come to my brick and mortar church.’ If you read all the blog posts about this issue, I find this sentiment implicit in much of the negative reaction. More than doing anything to reach people, I feel that we should establish biblical community wherever possible to make even the least of these be able to take part. We need to lower the threshold of getting into church, not raise it. Thanks for your good comment – and may God bless you today!

]]> By: Jake Johnson http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/2009/10/22/simchurch-being-the-church-in-a-virtual-world/#comment-41617 Jake Johnson Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:47:29 +0000 http://thedigitalsanctuary.org/?p=4356#comment-41617 Doug - "Chapters 2–4 in SimChurch go into great detail (for a non-academic book) on what church and biblical community is and how Western Civilization has so influenced this discussion as to make everything about community be tied to the physical where the Bible (primarily, but not only) ties it to the spiritual." I'd like to hear more on this (I guess I'll have to read the book!) :) My thoughts are that it's quite the opposite. The Bible is focused on the importance of not separating both spiritual and physical. It is Western thinking, beginning with Plato, that pried apart the physical (bad) from the spiritual (good). In saying the Bible is primarily concerned with community being spiritual, you seem to actually be reaffirming a Western view – not deconstructing it. The reality is that Christ incarnated into bodily form and lived in community with humans. He is still alive in bodily form. We find our communion in Christ - so in a sense being in Christ is both spiritual and physical. I've discussed this very topic of Internet church on my blog. If you have time or are interested, I'd love to here your thoughts: http://www.thejakers.com/tag/digitalists Doug –

“Chapters 2–4 in SimChurch go into great detail (for a non-academic book) on what church and biblical community is and how Western Civilization has so influenced this discussion as to make everything about community be tied to the physical where the Bible (primarily, but not only) ties it to the spiritual.”

I’d like to hear more on this (I guess I’ll have to read the book!) :)

My thoughts are that it’s quite the opposite. The Bible is focused on the importance of not separating both spiritual and physical. It is Western thinking, beginning with Plato, that pried apart the physical (bad) from the spiritual (good). In saying the Bible is primarily concerned with community being spiritual, you seem to actually be reaffirming a Western view – not deconstructing it.

The reality is that Christ incarnated into bodily form and lived in community with humans. He is still alive in bodily form. We find our communion in Christ – so in a sense being in Christ is both spiritual and physical.

I’ve discussed this very topic of Internet church on my blog. If you have time or are interested, I’d love to here your thoughts: http://www.thejakers.com/tag/digitalists

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